welcome back to our new podcast series

The 20-minute investor where we bring

you actionable nuggets and insights from

our real estate investing Journeys in

bite-size 20-minute episodes I’m Aaron

Amin my wife and I built a portfolio of

eight cash flowing rentals across three

states while working full-time and

raising a young family and I’m Nathan

I’m a husband father a tech executive

who built a portfolio of cash flowing uh

rentals across two states over 2,000

miles away together we co-founded the

remote real estate Academy where we

coach investors on how to build their

own portfolios cash flowing rentals from

anywhere in the world so this Series has

been a lot of fun we’ve been doing these

little kind of bite-sized 20- minute

episodes and digging into different

parts of our portfolio some of the

philosophy personal finance uh

strategies that we’ve used and uh also

questions from within our community or

even some of our audience so today

there’s a couple topics that Nathan and

I have riffed on uh over the years

actually that that have always caught my

interest and I think you know we have

some common opinions about this and

maybe we even have some different

opinions in certain spots so a couple

questions we’re going to dig into in

this episode um one of the most common

things we see in especially in Internet

real estate culture is that people blow

right past some of the lwh hanging fruit

of onm Market MLS listings and they go

straight for these flashy creative

finance and sub2 and stuff that sounds

fun and it it’s cool from a um it’s

exciting but it’s not boring like MLS

listings but people kind of go past

something that’s obvious and right in

front of them them and I kind of wanted

to you know dig into and unpack why we

think that is because Nathan I think you

one of the things I’ve always loved

about watching your strategy is that you

have a very patient very disciplined

approach and the majority of what you

find has come from monitoring the MLS

and being strategic with how you reach

out to to sellers so uh why don’t I kick

that over to you and tell me some of

your thoughts on

that I think it it comes from two maybe

three things I think the first one is

the Allure and the promise of being able

to get into a real estate deal uh in

other words you know be able to acquire

rental property without any of your

money right because oftentimes when you

think about the uh buy rehab rent refy

repeat you know strategy the bur

strategy um you know the the way it’s

always pitched and sold is that you can

you know buy this rental property fix it

up put some in there refinance it and

get all your money out so you got a

rental property without um having any of

your money in the deal so basically you

bring whatever you need for the you know

initial down payment but you get all of

that back so I think that is very

attractive to folks like oh you know

this sounds fantastic because I can you

know grow a real estate portfolio

essentially with no money and I think

that’s also true of you know other

creative Finance deals where you could

do seller finance where you like well

you know let’s say today as of this

recording you know uh interest rates for

investors is what they’re in the seven

eight% something like that and you think

about you know seller finance and oh I

could negotiate with a seller who owns

their property you know outright and I

could get a 2% interest rate you know uh

interest only for 30 years and all this

promise which while it entirely is

possible I don’t know how common that is

um so I I think you know that’s the main

reason why people get you know attracted

to those because you could get

um more favorable

terms uh which again I think is true uh

it’s just a question of how much effort

do you want to put

into uh you know these these Endeavors

to actually find and you know put

yourself in a situation where you have

uh those opportunities and as we’ve

talked about in the past I think for for

both of us I’ll speak for myself right

now it’s uh not something I have time to

do you know Finding creative deals or

finding uh or like creative Finance

deals is argu a full-time job because

you’re you know you know casting a super

wide net and maybe catching one little

thing from time to time and then you got

to negotiate and all that um so I think

that’s that’s one reason the other thing

that I’ve come across a lot is this

impression that a property that is

listed on the market so Zillow red fin

realtor you know your agents you know

MLS system or whatever the perception

that uh people have that that those

listings are akin to a store like you go

to your grocery store and you buy a loaf

of bread and the loaf of bread is you

know three bucks or whatever or 12 bucks

in California where I’m at but um you uh

that’s the price tag on the thing that

you’re buying and it will always and

only ever be that and then people run

their numbers with those you know

properties and those prices and those

quote price tags and they can’t can’t

find the cash flow that they’re looking

for whatever so they quickly move on and

as have we talked as we’ve talked about

in the past sorry it’s not like a

grocery store where that price is fixed

and it’s a price tag it’s more of a what

the seller wants for the property or

what the seller thinks the property is

worth but it’s not what you have to buy

it for and when you can kind of switch

that mental mindset to be like this is

listed at you know 200 Grand or whatever

uh I need to buy it for 150 for my

numbers to work that you can actually do

that but I think people either don’t

know that don’t realize that don’t feel

comfortable doing it maybe um and I

think yeah I think that’s where that

comes from why people kind of blow past

MLS

stuff yeah it’s a lot of Behavioral

psychology right like people are maybe

skeptical like you said of when

something hits the market like oh has it

already been either is is there

something wrong with it they couldn’t

get rid of it like in their own right or

like uh is it priced the way it should

be um I think one of the biggest things

we’ve noticed with our students in the

academy is that there’s this default

assumption that the list price is what

you have to pay for it like you said and

you know that that’s one of the first

things you have to kind of rewire like

in the calculators that we use or the

software that we use there’s this idea

of them you know what can I afford to

offer on this property to get the

returns that I need so if a property is

listed for $200,000 on the MLS and you

run through and you put your numbers in

and you say okay I’ve got my cacks

maintenance uh you know Property

Management vacancy all this stuff in and

based on what the market rent that I’ve

researched can get me I can afford to

pay $160,000 for this property most

people don’t even go through that

exercise to figure out what could I

afford to pay they just say it doesn’t

pencil at 200,000 I’m moving on I’m not

even going to consider it and it’s like

um if you just went through those

motions especially if something fits in

your buy box and at least either started

a conversation with your agent you know

I I know you and I have both talked

about how like it doesn’t take more than

5 minutes to go into a software like

deal check plug in an address run some

basic comps double check it with a

couple other databases uh and then use

the little interactive share link kick

that over to your agent and say hey I

saw this property came across you know

um it fits the parameters of what I’m

looking for but I can only afford to pay

this based on my math can you submit the

offer right and um in that example I

mentioned before $200,000 list price I

can afford to pay 160 well if your agent

knows you and they know that you’re

you’re a buyer that can close deals you

have have a portfolio you have some

credibility and understanding of the

market and this is the educated you know

offer that you’re making they’ll put it

in front of the seller and and the

seller or the seller’s agent will either

say no or they’ll counter and whatever

the outcome is you either started a

conversation or you move on um and if

you start thinking about it that way and

you do that at at a high enough volume

you will likely at some point end up in

a deal and you’ll end up in a deal that

you can afford to be in because if you

never for something more than what you

can afford based on the returns you need

then you won’t have any issues now the

flip side of that is that the off Market

deals if somebody hasn’t even listed

their home for sale you’re not anchoring

to any sort of market price there has

not been you’re more or less trying to

persuade them or like you know figure

out if they have some sort of motivation

and then match that to a price usually

which is way lower than what the market

might sell or what they might list for

on the open market and it’s a whole

different game and it’s a whole

different skill set I just think

sometimes that’s portrayed as being much

easier than it is but negotiating is not

easy especially with people who weren’t

planning to be in a negotiation and then

figuring out like a true market value

for something especially if it’s a

distressed asset like this is just it’s

not easy and I’m afraid that sometimes

it’s portrayed that way so I don’t know

if you have any thoughts on that too

yeah I think you touched on it I think

the way I look at it is like these these

creative deals are off Market deal is

one of the things that um people don’t

realize like when you’re doing like

Zillow or on Market type deals then

typically the sellers are uh you know in

a position and expecting a transaction

to happen that’s why they’ve listed

their property and they’re expecting to

go into conversations either themselves

or between their listing agent and you

know your buying agent and then there’s

a kind of implied um uh kind of

transaction and conversation and you

know slight negotiation is going to

that’s going to happen with the

off-market deals is basically what you

said I think there’s a whole different

dimension of negotiating that needs to

happen because you have to go in there

and like you said the whole um uh what’s

the word I’m looking for like the the

the property itself and like the the

parameters for that particular situation

and transaction are very different from

somebody uh that is intentionally

listing their property for sale but I

would say even before the negotiating

piece there’s this whole other piece

that um people tend to forget about or

or maybe don’t realize how critical and

needed it is is to actually build trust

and a relationship with that seller

because if you’re just you know John Doe

picking up the phone calling somebody

because you you know found an address

somewhere and want to you know try to

get an off-market deal the person on the

other end of the phone will not know who

you are not know you’re if you’re

credible or not not know if you would

you know be able to pay or not do you

have a track record or not so you’re

spending a lot of these Cycles back and

forth conversations probably multiple

you know phone conversations just to

build TR trust build Rel a relationship

before you can get into a place where

you can negotiate because you know until

they know you until they trust you

enough to actually have that

conversation they’re not even going to

enter into a negotiating conversation

and those things take skill effort

practice um and it’s just very different

if you’re doing off Market versus on

Market yeah and I think one one thing

important I want to just even click

further on is the followup the amount of

time it takes to nurture and build those

relationships it’s not just one phone

conversation hey I heard you you know

like it looks like you have a high

equity in your house and you’re a tired

landlord because I looked it up on

propstream do you want to sell your

house and they say oh yeah sure and then

you you negotiate a price and all of a

sudden you sell it’s like no that’s um

you know it’s usually the first

conversation you don’t even know if they

want to or not or maybe they’ve been

getting bombarded by other people who

found their their name on a list and

you’re competing for their attention and

you may or may not even like get to the

point of having a conversation in the

first like they might not answer or if

they do they might be hostile like you

got to like push past a lot of these

barriers and then if you’re not a good

Steward of that relationship meaning you

they might say call me in four months

and if you don’t call them in four

months like you’ve wasted time and if

you do call them in four months they

might say call me in three months and

you have to you have to almost assert a

little bit and say okay well like you

have to learn their situation like what

it is that might be motivating them to

even talk to you and then figure out

like how can I come up with a creative

solution that solves this person’s

problem and still fits within my par

parameters it’s a ton of moving pieces

and I think what I came to the

conclusion I think you and I both at

separate times considered doing off

Market stuff you know bringing in vas

and like booting up these systems we’ve

considered it but then when you actually

lay it out on the table and you realize

like not only the money that you’d have

to invest into marketing and um and

operations but the amount of effort of

like just being a steward of those of

those relationships it’s just too much

and if you if you make a mistake or if

you miss a followup or if you’re too

slow to call somebody back like they’ve

moved on and it would suck to pay you

know a th000 bucks or $2,000 to market

for a lead you get that lead and then

you know you’re busy hanging out with

your family and doing things that are

important to you and you didn’t call the

person back and they called the other

wholesaler down the street and you just

wasted two months or and or however much

money like that always got to me and

that’s ultimately why like I don’t I

don’t invest heavily in off Market yeah

I think it’s like we’ve said several

times it’s I mean it’s it’s a different

business it’s a different full-time job

to find those deals and the interesting

thing is you touched on it as well

talking about prop stream and the tools

like if I go to Zillow realtor red finin

whichever one it’s free for me to look

up properties that are listed online for

sale if I want to start shopping for

off-market deals you need a different

set of tools a different you know

database to access those where you can

pull up information about uh you know

which properties are not listed which

ones have high equity which ones are

owned by out ofate investors all this

stuff and typically

uh those tools aren’t free you know

usually they’re you know 15 100 150

bucks a month which sometimes is a

barrier to entry for some people um and

let’s assume the money piece the 150

bucks a month for these tools is not a

beer to entry for you you then need to

know how to use them they’re not

straightforward just pull up Zillow and

look at you know cityx to find single

family homes that are listed for sale

you’ve got to know how to filter sort

find uh what to look for or how what

high Equity means what you know what

situations a seller might be um

more uh potentially um ready to sell in

an off-market deal um and all that just

takes you know skill practice training

money um all of which you can avoid if

you’re just buying properties off of

Zillow and I think you know I I will

speak for myself and you tell me if you

disagree but not trying to knock the off

Market or direct to seller strategies

they’re actually very effective and I

know a lot of people and we’ve in our

Network built a lot of relationships

with investors who have had a lot of

success with that that is just not the

way of the 20-minute investor and this

kind of system that we are teaching

which is that you know hey we have our

jobs we have our families we have our

health we have our Hobbies we have all

this other stuff competing for that

attention and time and if we give up the

more the more Cycles we give up to

things like cold calling or like you

know text follow-ups you can automate a

lot of that stuff but you’re you’re

investing all this time and money into

something you feel the pressure that you

must make that succeed and it ends up

pulling away from these other areas of

your life so I think what we’re saying

is that there are tools like Zillow even

deal Che is free they have a free

version like you could take those two

tools and a relationship with an agent

and a property manager you build your

team and for $ zero a month you can go

and like make sure that you’re offering

on every single property that fits your

buy box you’re in your case one other

topic to hit on is like monitoring if a

if a seller initially rejected your

offer but their property’s been on the

market for 70 days 80 days and then they

pull it off you can find if you’re

paying close enough attention you can

engage with that person try and restart

the conversation all this stuff costs no

money and it doesn’t cost that much time

either yeah so maybe if you can like um

explain how you have monitored also that

scenario I just mentioned where when a

listing stretches out when it goes when

they pull it off the market um you’ve

you’ve have a really good re-engagement

strategy so maybe you could explain how

you do that too yeah I mean it it’s

frankly very simple because all these

tools online you know I use Zillow but

it’s the same with realtor red finin

they all do the same thing but I use the

features of those sites that just make

it easy for me it starts with just

specifying you know what it is that I’m

looking for so I have like this preset

and saved search criteria for you know

specific zip codes specific types of

proper proper so single family home

three bed two bath garage basement in

these school districts and that’s saved

as a as my buy box we talk about that in

the course as well but that’s saved in

Zillow which means every time a property

that pops up on the the market that you

know matches those criteria I will get

an email from um Zillow in my inbox and

then I could just go do a quick scan see

if it more or less fits my buy box if it

does I just hit that little heart you

know button in Zillow and it’s I don’t

know if it’s a heart in Redfin or

realtor but that you know save this

property you know feature whatever and

then what that means is like

automatically anytime anything happens

to that property somebody submits an

offer on it or it goes off market right

or Price decrease happens for that

property or uh it gets pulled off Market

I get a notification from Zillow that

just said hey this happened to this

property so I use that to just Monitor

and keep track of these specific

properties in addition to putting them

in a spreadsheet but that I would argue

is maybe not even NE Neary um and uh

anytime I see the you know I because

I’ve set it up that way I could see and

track what’s happening to all these

properties that fit my criteria my buy

box and then when I see one two three

price drops then maybe I jump in with an

offer that makes sense to me at the

price that makes sense for our numbers

or when I see it get pulled off of um

you know the market I go to my agent and

say hey let’s just engage with the

seller see what’s happened maybe they

don’t want to sell anymore Maybe they

weren’t able to sell anymore and if they

weren’t able to sell anymore maybe

they’d be open to an offer from us right

um I like to monitor those things as

well and a lot of the deals that we’ve

had uh some of the best deals that we’ve

closed on were those that went pending

meaning some other buyer you know

offered on the property they went under

contract so the offer was accepted and

then something throughout the diligence

process fell through who knows what it

is I don’t really care uh but it they

did not close on that transaction so the

seller puts it back on the market and

when I see that I typically try to be

the first to offer the minute I see that

come through in my email to say hey

agent please help me this is back on

Market I want to go in aggressive and

the premise of that is simply the seller

I think it’s more psychology like you

were saying before and how true or how

measurable this is I have no idea but

the seller was anxious and excited to be

in a transaction thinking they would

sell their property that fell through

and I can be their Solution by coming in

with a solid track record and just being

hey I’ll do it but here the conditions

and I think that has some some power

some leverage um for the sellers so yeah

that’s my system I guess in the nutshell

and it costs

nothing it costs nothing and it costs uh

no more than my 20 minutes a day that I

have to put into this whereas if I had

to build a business and do cold calling

and all that stuff then i’ be starting a

new job and I don’t want a new

job love it well there you go Nathan and

Aaron’s take on why ignoring the low

hanging fruit of the MLS is um perhaps

one of the biggest you know pitfalls we

see people fall into and uh why we’re

here to hopefully provide a different

viewpoint on how you can make better use

of the MLS so if you like this episode

drop a comment H shoot us an email we’d

love to chat about this and hear how you

feel about it too and we will catch you

next time thank you for making it to the

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